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Post by pavane on Jan 17, 2023 16:39:06 GMT
I like what I generally refer to as WAM - classical isn't really a very good term as it can mean anything from the music of Haydn and Mozart to pretty much anything played by an orchestra. The most talented musician I personally ever met used the term Western Art Music and I think that is a good description.
I like a fairly wide range of WAM ranging from Renaissance music to late Romantic and some twentieth century. After that, not that much. Trying to name living composers is like that "name some famous Belgians" game (with apologies to any Belgians reading this) - Arvo Pärt and Karl Jenkins are about the only ones I can think of, plus that one who likes the Beatles, can't think of his name. Also Helmut Lachenmann. I know the latter because I once sat through his Tanzsuite mit Deutschlandlied at a Proms concert. What an experience. It was performed by an orchestra and a string quartet. It involved such "musical devices" as the leader of the quartet playing his expensive-looking violin percussively by hitting the back of the body with the wooden part of the bow. And I, and clearly most of the audience, just thought: Really? It's hard to define music, but I'm not entirely sure that, if you take away melody, harmony and rhythm, what you have left is anything more specific than noise. To be fair, Lachenmann makes a living out of his music and has won some prestigious awards, but I'm not sure that music that can only get performed by tacking it onto a concert featuring something else that people actually wanted to hear.
Of course, it's easy to come up with examples of now-revered composers who struggled to make a living in their day - Beethoven, I assume, wasn't massively keen about giving piano lessons - or of pieces of music now regarded as masterworks that weren't hugely popular on first performance: Beethoven can provide some examples of those too. But all of that seems to me to be totally eclipsed by, say, the likes of Schoenberg. Did anyone really like 12-tone music at the time? Does anyone really like it now? Ok, of course some people do, but I can't see any of his music ever occupying a place in public affection anything like that accorded to, say, Beethoven's later piano concertos, which at one time I actually got fed up with as they got performed at pretty much every concert I went to.
It's easy to be prejudiced and old-fogeyish about modern music, though I was pretty old-fogeyish about it even when I wasn't old. What does anyone else think?
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Post by keff on Jan 17, 2023 17:56:44 GMT
My impression is that some modern composers think they have to do something which hasn't been tried before and end up with strange sounding works which can be an unpleasant listen. I have played a few piano pieces by Einaudi, Philip Glass and Michael Nyman therefore I must like some of their compositions. I have a good impression of Eric Whitacre after listening to a few recordings. Having not attended an orchestral concert for a very long time guess I've become quite out of touch.
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Post by pavane on Jan 17, 2023 18:36:07 GMT
Yes, there does seem to be an urge to do something that hasn't been tried before. But maybe there was a reason for that!
I had forgotten Michael Nyman but I too like some of his music. I suppose it's not all bad, but equally it's hard to look around and feel one is in a golden age.
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Post by Zi on Jan 17, 2023 18:42:20 GMT
I once bought a boxed set of Philip Glass and I played a bit but it sounded very similar to me so I gave the set to my best friend who thinks Glass is absolutely wonderful. I suppose the nearest to modern classical I get is people like Christoper Tin - I guess he's really classical crossover. Would you count him in? Then I really do flounder because it would be games music composers like Jeremy Soule. I have his complete soundtrack to Skyrim and I consider it as coherent outside of the game. Maybe he doesn't belong here either and should go elsewhere in one of those other sections we have despite the fact that his choral work does get performed.
Sibelius did some very strange tone poems. I love Sibelius's work but some of those pieces leave me behind somewhere. I keep wondering if I'm failing to see the point or what. And there are modern pieces composed for the recorder which really I haven't manage to struggle through - try as I might and mostly I can listen to anything on the recorder.
Time passes different judgements in any case. Marlowe was more famous than Shakespeare and his plays better received. Apparently some people thought CPE Bach superior to the father. Perhaps some art away from its time period is just perceived differently and more kindly.
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Post by pavane on Jan 17, 2023 19:15:55 GMT
All true - I think the board of the school Bach worked for in Leipzig reckoned they'd only got 2nd best because they really wanted Telemann. It's impossible to guess who will be highly rated in the future and who will go out of favour. There are plenty of examples of composers who have gained in stature after their death. I'm sure someone will come up with a counter example, but take eg Mahler. Not particularly successful as a composer in his lifetime, his music then languished after his death until about the 1950s when it started to become more popular. It's now very popular indeed. There is a website somewhere dedicated to listing every performance of a Mahler work anywhere in the world. I see that a BBC poll of conductors in 2016 ranked 3 of Mahler's symphonies in the top 10 symphonies of all time.
Mahler lived from 1860-1911. Schoenberg lived from 1874 till 1951. Hard to compare in some ways because he was only 14 years younger, but lived much longer. Nonetheless, I would say there is no sign whatsover of Schoenberg being anywhere close to the sort of recognition Mahler now enjoys. Vaughan Williams lived for much the same period as Schoenberg and is (and was) much more popular. He seems to me, though, to have remained pretty much within the romantic tradition. I don't know how many boundaries he might have shifted, but at least he retained the baby even if he didn't change the bath water.
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Post by Zi on Jan 18, 2023 12:59:54 GMT
OK I thought a lot about this last night and maybe I'm showing my ignorance. I'm not sure what modern classical music is so I steer into areas I am comfortable like music composed for video games (I don't like that term but I'll use it). Someone like Jeremy Soule is effectively working for a rich patron - Todd Howard. That's no different from Bach writing stuff for his rich patrons. When that happens don't artists often end up writing what the patron wants? So, perhaps they get partially shaped by the patron. (Soule's main anthem got sent back several times by Todd Howard as he wanted it larger, louder and more 'barbarian'!)
I don't know anything at all about Schoenberg. I like Mahler. Vaughan Williams is unobjectionable and hummable (what I've seen of him). But how far are they composing what they want or doing what is wanted? Christopher Tin composed a theme for Civilization because he was asked to but actually he writes that kind of music anyway - that's why they asked him. Soule undoubtedly enjoyed composing for Skyrim because he admires Wagner. But maybe some of these modern composers really want to compose something else but feel they have to 'appease' a patron or the public!
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Post by keff on Jan 18, 2023 14:11:25 GMT
At the BBC Proms there are a number of new commissions every year and I vouch that very few are played again. Perhaps the modern WAM which is written to please the majority of people (and I'm happy to be challenged on this) is film music and gaming music (which is getting more recognition). I think composer like John Williams and Ennio Morricone will be remembered for a long time.
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Post by Zi on Jan 18, 2023 16:09:36 GMT
John Williams is a genius! We've been watching Back To The Future s. We've watched them a zillion times because I love those films. The music there is so clever. Ditto the Indian Jones films. That guy knows how to build atmosphere and to hint and remind using tiny snippets of the main theme. It's seriously clever. I bet he could write good games music too. If he doesn't become someone the future looks back on with awe then it will be a poor future.
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Post by pavane on Jan 18, 2023 16:51:25 GMT
Agree about the Proms. Also agree that film is a good place for new music (and probably gaming too, but I'm not really familiar with any). There have been some great film composers - the two you mention of course, plus quite a number of others over the years. One of Vaughan Williams's symphonies started life as a film score I think, can't remember which one, and I think Bax did film scores too. And here's one of those top ten lists everybody loves.
There has always had to be some way of financing music. Bach taught and played the organ (did he get paid for that? - some of the French composers did). Haydn had the Esterhazys and Wagner had Mad King Ludwig, and there was a range of royal patrons in between. So why not Universal Studios?
I love the music to The Third Man  |
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Post by keff on Jan 18, 2023 20:34:42 GMT
Pavane, I have never been able to figure out how to hide a link behind a word of text and the link you have provided has reminded me of many renowned composers. Debbie Wiseman also came to mind as I scanned the list.
Max Steiner is arguably worthy of his top place but seeing his name I recalled a morsel of trivia. Whilst learning the music to 'As Time Goes By' from 'Casablanca', for which Steiner is credited for writing the music score, I quickly became aware that he hadn't written "As Time Goes By". Both words and music are by Herman Hupfeld. It was alleged that Steiner didn't like the song and even tried to get it removed from film. What would Sam have sung if he had been successful?
The most moving part of the film in my opinion is the singing of La Marseillaise.
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Post by Zi on Jan 19, 2023 9:07:52 GMT
Pavane, I have never been able to figure out how to hide a link behind a word of text and the link you have provided has reminded me of many renowned composers. Debbie Wiseman also came to mind as I scanned the list. It's a bit of BBCode and BBCode can be notoriously annoying and easy to make mistakes with so the easiest way to do it without frazzling your nerves is: Make sure you're in the full editor (not quick reply). Chose the little weblink box in the top ribbon area (below subject)... it's the blue ball thing with a piece of paper in front of it. From that type in the word you want to be linked to something - it will default to Text - Link. Then add you url. HelloI'm assuming zero knowledge so skip the bits that teach granny etc etc. |
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Post by keff on Jan 19, 2023 10:48:15 GMT
Thanks Zi, on this particular subject and indeed on many other subjects your assumption is correct. |
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Post by Zi on Jan 19, 2023 11:06:51 GMT
Thanks Zi, on this particular subject and indeed on many other subjects your assumption is correct. I tend to hope someone else will need to know so I cover all bases. I specialised in user behaviour so I've found it's best to start at zero and anyone who knows stuff is at liberty to yawn and look bored but I'm always fearful someone will feel left out... It's my greatest fear. I can't stop myself from being protective about users of systems - even after all these years. Running the forum(s) has brought it all flooding back. I'm terrified there will be people all sad because they're struggling with something or too shy to take part. When someone finds some little functionality, I get really excited for them! I know very little about music. When I started playing (recorder) nearly 10 years ago, I couldn't even read the treble clef... The bass still eludes me... I love As Time Goes By... The lyrics are very clever. Harry Nilsson's version is my favourite... |
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Post by keff on Jan 19, 2023 11:33:47 GMT
Isn't the net wonderful (YouTube) as I have just listened to that recording on vevo. Very lush orchestration and relaxed tempo. Have you heard versions of this song that contain the first verse referring to Mr. Einstein's theory ? It appeals to my physicist brain.
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Post by Zi on Jan 19, 2023 11:38:58 GMT
Isn't the net wonderful (YouTube) as I have just listened to that recording on vevo. Very lush orchestration and relaxed tempo. Have you heard versions of this song that contain the first verse referring to Mr. Einstein's theory ? It appeals to my physicist brain. No, I haven't - is there a linky? If I could choose, I'd be a physicist. I so admire them. I'd work in quantum computing. I wanted to be a poet but that didn't happen! I looked up Harry Nilsson on wiki - he's dead! When did that happen?! That's what happens when you approach 7 Oh I guess... Now, back to those tricky moutons and classical music. I've realised I don't actually know how I'd define classical music in the first place - no wonder I don't know if it's lost its way... |
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