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Post by Zi on Jan 24, 2023 21:45:17 GMT
Arghhh!!! That's horrible. I have a slight deformity on the little finger of my right hand. It's genetic. When I was a child I had to have a toe straightened and they offered to do my finger at the same time. I refused even though that finger really embarrassed me. I'm so glad I didn't have it done. They weren't very good at fingers then. I might not be able to use that little finger even as well as I can! I think I will count my blessings and if I can't reach bottom C on the tenor, I'll play stuff that doesn't need bottom C! As my teacher used to say - there's plenty of (other) music! I can just see her - in my mind's eye - scouring the music to avoid bottom C or rewriting bits for me! Interesting story though! I like little snippets like that! I shall show off my new found knowledge to my husband - who's the pianist here!
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Post by Zi on Mar 27, 2023 9:11:42 GMT
I'm reading The Recorder Player's Handboook - Linde - he says that some people mouths (teeth and tongue) would make it difficult for them to play a recorder. He says you'd be able to tell by the way they spoke! I've never really thought about tongue shape and teeth in the context of recorder playing. And I don't remember seeing anyone be quite this pessimistic about the effect of mouth shape. Has anyone else come across anything?
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Post by Misty on Mar 27, 2023 11:04:34 GMT
I've just had a look at the blurb on thumb-rests on the the Dolmetsch website that Zi mentioned. This really stuck out:- "The thumbrest is more likely to be used by beginners, because beginners are more likely to:
1) believe in gadgets 2) fatigue easier when playing a recorder 3) have a plastic recorder which they're not as careful of as a better wood recorder
4) not know how a thumbrest promotes an ergonomically dangerous playing position on the recorder. (OK, experienced players don't know this one, either)."
I have put number 4 in bold, because.....why? Why does a thumb-rest promote an ergonomically dangerous playing position? I find it very difficult to play without a thumb-rest, except on soprano. Please would someone explain this to me?
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Post by Zi on Mar 27, 2023 11:59:44 GMT
Misty - I think you've answered your own question here: find it very difficult to play without a thumb-rest, except on soprano. Please would someone explain this to me? I can't reach some of the shelves in the kitchen without kitchen steps... Steps are not the safest of things though - it would be better to be tall. The 'ergonomic' thing is tricky because what is ergonomically best for person A might not be the case for person B and when ergonomists deal in generalisations they always have leeway because no two people are alike. The article on the Dolmetsch site is interesting because it's some extreme views arguing it out and using humour to do it. I think the best position is to do what works best for you. I got into the opposite camp - I tried desperately hard to get a thumb-rest to work for me because everyone else seemed to use it but it doesn't work for me so I don't use one except on the tenor where it has some use for me. Do what makes you happy - certainly don't make playing more difficult for yourself because someone does or doesn't like thumb rests. Does that help?
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Post by Misty on Mar 27, 2023 16:22:02 GMT
Yes, that makes sense, thank you Zi. I just worry when I read things like that, and the chatter starts up in my brain again - "I am doing it all wrong", "my recorder playing will never be any good", "I'm setting myself up for further joint problems in the future", etc, etc. Aaaaagh! So thank you for speaking common sense to a Qualified Worrier!
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Post by Zi on Mar 27, 2023 17:26:41 GMT
No, you're not setting yourself up for problems and a thumb rest won't stop you from being a good recorder player. The person writing that article was a man and might therefore have had bigger hands in any case. Sometimes when you can do things, it's very hard to see that someone else might have an issue with it.
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Post by Zi on Mar 28, 2023 7:58:16 GMT
Helen Hooker has an article about training fingers here: finger training linkI haven't looked at all of it - there's a lot of material there - but she's always so sensible and kind so I bet the bits I haven't examined are a treat as well.
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Post by pavane on Mar 28, 2023 9:00:25 GMT
It's interesting that Dolmetsch have the thing about a thumb rest promoting poor ergonomics: I think they might be right. I don't have much experience with thumb rests on recorders, but I have some with rests on clarinets, and my experience is that they are generally in the wrong place, often significantly so. This is not just my opinion. There is, for example, a (retired?) clarinet player called Lesley Craven who sells clarinets and accessories via his website; one of the accessories is a thumb rest cushion, and his blurb says where he thinks the thumb rest should be, that it often isn't, and that the instrument should be sorted out by a technician if this is the case before bothering with the cushion. I think I've posted this before, but here goes: I read somewhere (in one of the Hauwe recorder books I think) that the best thing to do is to hang your arms down by your sides, be relaxed, and bring the thumbs to the fingers. That's where your thumb should naturally be, and for most people it's roughly opposite their first finger. The only wooden clarinet I have that has a thumb rest (the Ehlert) has an adjustable one, and the highest I can get it places my thumb roughly between my 2nd and 3rd fingers, which is far too low down. It's uncomfortable and I have removed it but I could have chosen to get used to it, and presumably that's the point at which you are causing damage to your hand.
Misty: this might not be relevant, but you play the flute, and I don't think a flute has a thumb rest, you just support it as comfort dictates. In which case, it would be interesting to see where your thumb ends up in relation to your fingers, and see if that can be replicated on the recorder. Sorry if there is something that does dictate where your thumb goes, in which case this is nonsense! Also, the fact that you don't need a rest with soprano is presumably because it's the lightest, but that might mean you are gripping it in some way that is strong enough to support its weight, but not the weight of a heavier instrument, but the gripping might also not be ergonomically great. Just a thought! You can probably tell on an instrument you've played for a while because there will be an obvious mark of some sort where your thumb has been, and it would be interesting to see how big it is. On my instruments, it's big enough to show that my thumb moves around a bit, which I know anyway. All my other fingers (inc left thumb) move as I play, and perhaps keeping my right thumb rigidly in the same place wouldn't be ergonomically great either, yet this is another thing a thumb rest causes.
Overall, I completely agree with Zi about whatever works for you - these things are supposed to make life easier, not harder.
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Post by Zi on Mar 30, 2023 10:46:46 GMT
It's probably like shoes. (I have a 'thing' about shoes - my father used to say I 'inherited' it from him - there's presumably a shoe gene ). Anyway, if you want great fitting shoes - have them made; they'll be wonderful. But the reality is most people find shoes to find them without any problems though you may not end up with quite the style you wanted. The position of the thumb rest may well have been arrived by looking at Average Person (who doesn't exist) so most people will cope, a few might be delighted and some will be decidedly fed up. If I was making instruments I'd make the thumb rest as flexible as possible. I don't really believe in Average Person. If the position it's in never really gels then it would be worth getting a technician to shift the thing but one would need to be confident that it was really going to be an improvement. John (from Saunders Recorders) says that he was forever being asked to move thumb-rests only to discover they'd been moved before - sometimes several times. So, I like the idea of pavane's observing where the thumb seems to want to be naturally before making a final decision about it - (the thumb-rest - not the thumb - one is kind of stuck with that the way it is).
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